BY BOB ELLIS
DAKOTA VOICE
This is the sixth installment in a 8-part series examining the DVD "For the Bible Tells Me So."
Introduction - Why the DVD Deserves a Closer Look
Part 1 - Building Sympathy Without Exegisis
Part 2 - The Bible as a 'Truth Buffet'
Part 3 - Understanding the Bible...Or Rewriting It?
Part 4 - Science or the Bible...or Neither?
Part 5 - Why Was Sodom Destroyed?
Dr. Richard J. Mouw, President of Fuller Theological Seminary, a fairly liberal scholar, says he believes the story of Sodom is about homosexuality, “But if all we have is the Sodom and Gomorrah story, there’s not a lot in the Old Testament that settles the question. We have to turn to the New Testament,” Mouw continues. “The one that’s very clear is Romans 1.”
While Dr. Mouw seems to forget about the passage in Leviticus which clearly condemns homosexuality, and the passage in Genesis chapter 2 which clearly outlines God's design for human sexuality as being between a man and a woman, he is correct that Romans chapter one also clearly condemns homosexuality. However, another Bible “authority” arrives at this point in "For the Bible Tells Me So" (FTBTMS) to cast doubt on what would otherwise be quite plain.
Rev. Jimmy Creech of Faith in America says that when Paul uses the terms “natural” and “unnatural” he really meant “customary” and “uncustomary.”
“It wasn’t customary for men to have sex with men in the Jewish context,” Creech says. “But he [Paul] saw it in the Greek world, so he saw that as evidence of worshipping the wrong god, of idolatry.”
It wasn't "customary" for Jewish men to have sex with other men because God had made it plain to the Jewish people that He doesn't approve of it. Since God had already dealt with this issue in the Hebrew Scriptures, I think it's safe to say that both Paul and the rest of Jewish culture had a more-than-adequate understanding of what homosexual sex is, that it isn't natural because it's contrary to God's design for sexuality, and that God doesn't approve of it.
Rev. Gomes says of the passage in Romans chapter 1, “His reference, of course, is to exploitive same-sex relationships among pagan Romans and Greeks. Paul certainly never contemplated the kind of monogamous, long-term relationships that are very much normal among homosexual people today.”
Paul was a very learned man, and a well-traveled man. It is implausible to believe that this rabbi who studied under the great Gamaliel wouldn’t have understood that homosexuality occurs in every society to some extent, whether it be Roman, Greek or Jewish.
Even if Paul hadn’t contemplated this, the Bible makes no reference whatsoever to the acceptability of homosexual behavior “as long as it’s in a monogamous, long-term relationship.” The practice violates God’s man-woman design for human sexuality, regardless of how long two same-sex partners have sex with one another.
Also, long-term homosexual relationships were not unheard of in the ancient world (Alexander the Great), though they were the exception to the rule, as they are in the modern world.
Along those lines and contrary to Gomes’ assertion, monogamy is NOT the norm among homosexuals today. While some couples do remain together for long periods of time, this is not normal, nor is it usually monogamous.
According to a 2003-2004 survey of homosexuals, only 15 percent reported relationships lasting longer than 10 years. According to a Canadian study, even among homosexuals who stay in a “committed” relationship, only 25 percent remained monogamous, and another study found the number to be as low as 4.5 percent. This low level of commitment helps explain why a survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found 24 percent of respondents said they had more than 100 sexual partners in their lifetime, with a few reporting over 1,000. The advent of legally-recognized domestic relationships equated to “marriage” in some countries has done little to improve these figures.
But getting back to the film, Creech tells us, “The Bible really doesn’t deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it. There were no Greek words, no Hebrew words, no Aramaic words for these concepts of human sexuality. And therefore the few references that have been lifted out of the Bible to be used in religious teachings to condemn homosexuality really are inappropriate.”
Creech must be forgetting about the multiple references in both Old and New Testaments which refer to men having sex with men, and women with women. They described the act with complete clarity. The ancients did not use our modern word “homosexuality,” which is a composite of the Greek “homos” meaning “same” and sexuality which, of course, we all understand.
But of course the writers of the Old and New Testaments understood perfectly well what homosexuality was. If you believe the Bible, then you know that the writers were guided by the Holy Spirit of God--and God certainly knew what homosexuality was.
This, like practically every other Biblical assertion made by FTBTMS, holds no water.
In Part 7 next week: do activism, sympathy and self supersede Biblical authority?
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Tuesday, June 10, 2008
For the Bible Tells Me So: The Real Story, Part 6
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11 comments:
bob
"While Dr. Mouw seems to forget about the passage in Leviticus which clearly condemns homosexuality"
not all the prohibitions of lev were of themselves sins.........wearing mixed fabric, eating shellfish, doing household chores on the sabbath....number15:32
god approved and instructed ethnic slavery...................today it is an intolerable evil.
AGAIN: test everything, keep the good.
"the Bible makes no reference whatsoever to the acceptability of homosexual behavior"
it doesnt have to because jesus has given us the tools to identify what is of him and what isnt and the holy spirit to assist us.
"Along those lines and contrary to Gomes’ assertion, monogamy is NOT the norm among homosexuals today. While some couples do remain together for long periods of time, this is not normal, nor is it usually monogamous."
adults as a rule are very protective of their heterosexual children, and look to live in environments that will have postive influences on them including involving the extended family in their raising.
until recently homosexuals whether children or not for the last 200 years have been abandoned by family and friends, rejected by society including the church, and subject to incarceration, assault, and possibly even murder.
the fact that there has been any normal bonding whatsoever is amazing.
are the homosexuals that were married in massachussets giving any indication that they are trending toward the same divorce percentages as heterosexual marriage or the percentages of divorce of those heteosexual marriages that were performed during the same time??
You're right, feetxxxl, that not all of the prohibitions in Leviticus were moral transgressions...with the key word in this sentence being ALL. If you go back to Part 1 of this series, I discussed the differences between the ritual and dietary restrictions and the moral sections of Leviticus, so I won't reiterate them here.
In the ancient world, there was not only slavery of the kind we know from America's history of 150 years ago, but servants who sold themselves into servitude for a time. God even made provision for people in such situtations, so that they were not mistreated during their period of servitude. God has always recognized the dignity of all people, being created in His image, and has never considered a person to have less dignity or value because of their station.
You say that it doesn't matter that the Bible makes no reference to an instance where homosexuality is acceptable. Implicit in that statement is the sentiment that the references where God SPECIFICALLY states it is unacceptable also don't matter. The Holy Spirit will never testify falsely or in a fashion contrary to what God's Word says; if we hear a voice telling us something contrary to the Bible, we can know it isn't the Spirit. The Bible is the tool God has given us for measuring truth and falsehood.
I'm afraid I just don't understand what you're trying to say with regard to children, so I'm going pass on that for now.
I'm unaware if there is any data available on divorce rates from Mass. same-sex "marriages;" it's probably too soon. However, there is data from Sweden, where it's been recognized since the 1990s. That data indicates homosexual males are 50% more likely to "divorce" than heterosexuals, and homosexual women were 167% more likely.
But ultimately it comes back around to the question posed by this DVD in the first place: what does the Bible say about homosexuality? Clearly, from Old Testament to New, it says God doesn't approve of it.
in lev, not all the prohibitions of themselves are sins
according to lev god approves and encourages ethnic slavery
2 Chronicles 8:8
that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites had not destroyed—these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day.
Leviticus 25:44
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
Leviticus 25:46
You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life
the above is what the south stood on to split a church and engage in a war that killed 2million. they used your same arguement of approval.
god disapproved of household chores on the sabbath.
numbers 15:32
32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
moral sections of leviticus also includes rules of slavery
its interesting given the historical understanding of the ways that jews have treated gentiles that you would characterize them as ideal slaveholders.
we all know that regardless of it being in writng the jews never celebated a year of jubillee when all debts were to be forgiven and all land was to be returned to its rightful owner. these are the people you are characterizing as being ideal slaveholders.
its interesting in spite of there being prophets. i know of no scripture where a prophet spoke out against this or god punished them for not abiding by it.
You say that it doesn't matter that the Bible makes no reference to an instance where homosexuality is acceptable.
it does matthew 19:11-12.
it makes no reference about mixed marriages, integration, or women voting. all of these were denied because of scriptural understandings.
in sweden homosexuality is tolerated.................but it still is not accepted, and there is very much active social prejudice against it. in the same that the french allowed musilms to come into their country, but never accepted their presence into their country.
christ gave us a holy spirit who lives in us and tools of discernment to determine what is and is not of him.
feetxxxl, I'll say it again as I said it in response to one of your previous comments: Matthew 19:11-12 does not in any way, shape, form or fashion condone homosexuality. Jesus was talking about men who, because they were castrated or because they simply had no desire, did not have sex with women. It says not a single thing here or anywhere else in a positive fashion about men having sex with men or women having sex with women--but it DOES say in multiple passages in both Old and New Testaments that God DISAPPROVES of it.
The instances you mentioned about racially mixed marriages, etc. came from MISINTERPRETATIONS (at best) of the Bible (just as you're misinterpreting Matt. 19:11-12). God does NOT want his people marrying people of other faiths or no faith, but he doesn't care about ethnicity.
You keep repeating this statement about the Holy Spirit as if it were a talisman. The Holy Spirit helps us, but we have God's word as the ultimate standard of truth, because it's very easy to confuse the Holy Spirit's voice with the voice of our own desires. The Holy Spirit will NEVER tell us anything contrary to the Bible.
answered in my response to part three
"Creech must be forgetting about the multiple references in both Old and New Testaments which refer to men having sex with men, and women with women."
What Old Testament passages prohibit women from having sex with women?
It's in Hezekiah 11:99.
Actually, if you re-read the sentence you may notice that it, rephrased, it says this: there are multiple references in the Bible referring to men having sex with men and women having sex with women, and those references are found in both the Old and New Testaments. It doesn't say that both types of references (men and men, women and women) will be found in both the Old and New Testaments.
We wouldn't be trying to be nit-picky to avoid an unpleasant truth, would we?
No, we were just asking a simple question, because your syntax confused us and we could read it either way. No need to get defensive.
You know, for a Christian you're awfully condescending.
I didn't mean to be condescending, but if you expect all Christians to be mealy-mouthed and timid about the truth, not all of us are. One might say that your interrogative sounded a little condescending.
I think you mean the "truth."
Actually, I should have said Truth. Because God, being the Truth, is the source and sum of all truth.
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